Nov 18 2008
Do Gods Need Religion?
More for RPG Blog Carnival: Religion, this time inspired by thinking about the topic itself and the way people have responded to it.
I’ve always been partial to chicken-and-egg questions, particularly within the context of invented worlds. And I always come back to this one: Do gods and religions require each other? Can you have a religion without a god, or a god without a religion? In a world of active gods, can a religion based around a god that doesn’t exist survive, let alone flourish?
I haven’t seen too many people thinking about this in fantasy worlds. Yes, I’ve seen worlds in which the closest you get to a god is a creator-thing that nobody’s heard a word from in a thousand years, or people who believe that their societies are somehow “above” religion. (Which is silly, but that’s beside the point.) But with most fantasy authors, it’s one of several possibilities: The god(s) really do(es) exist, and the religion is their will (or at worst co-opted by some other very real and very vocal god); the religion is a sham used to control the ignorant populace in some way; or the religion began as a duty to guard something or keep something out and in time blossomed into the form it’s in now, most likely forgetting its original purpose in the process. And yes, the latter do not need gods, but they still end up being either evil or a potentially fatal mistake.
But why is this necessary?
What of gods so obscure that none remember to pray to them? Or holidays coopted by other religions so long ago that nobody remembers what they originally were? Has anyone ever found a force of nature to be so powerful and so seemingly capricious that it inspires worship and attempts at placation, and is seen as a god in its own right? Might there be a god who doesn’t do his job, but gets worshiped anyway? Do people worship concepts that do not have their own gods? Do such concepts even exist?
Even assuming a real god and a religion knowingly built around him, there’s still a lot of ways in which the religion and the god can be separated. Through whom (if anyone) does he actually speak? Does he have time to pay attention to every little branch of his church? What portion of the ceremonies for his religion were actually his idea? For that matter, how much of the code of conduct was actually his idea? And what about his congregationers; do all of them really believe he exists, or if he’s proven real that he would take the time to help them? Or are they there to try to find out, to be with a family member or friend, to feel the community, to give an appearance of piety?
And what happens when there’s a miscommunication, or a misunderstanding? Even when one can count on the written word, passing down information to future generations is like a game of Telephone. Something’s going to change en route, and the main question is going to be whether it’s a little detail nobody’s going to miss, or vitally important.
Speaking of the appearance of piety, what happened to the gray area when it comes to how “right” a religion is? I often see people dealing with some tenet of a religion being twisted by time and Telephone by repudiating it entirely, and this stance being narratively encouraged. Is it really optimal to throw the baby out with the bathwater? What’s the fun in worlds that encourage these sorts of extremes?
And none of these require an intervening god, or are clearly going to fail in the absence thereof. Still skeptical? I’m going to spend a little while writing about gods, and about religion, but not simultaneously. Think it’s doable? Let’s find out.
Generally when I have gods in a story they fall into a few simple categories:
1) Fake - people claiming responsibility for something they didn’t do
2) Demons - more or less, powerful creatures with a certain agenda who may be “good” or “bad” from a utilitarian sense but exist in a universe with no true divinity
3) Actual divinity - beings whose existence forms part of the metaphysics of the universe and are thus eternal and indestructible from the standpoint of anyone within said universe
For a while I liked the “prayer” idea popularized by Terry Pratchett - that is, gods have power proportional to the number of people who believe in them - but apart from the fact that it’s a bit limiting, I also recognize that it’s an allegory and shouldn’t be used indiscriminately as part of game mechanics or narrative.
I have to laugh about the “religion has no need for a god” part - not only was that Pratchett’s point, but I am also writing a story about that (if it ever gets finished). On the other hand, that’s only part of a larger point in said story so… that gets complicated.
In a *current* story, I’m writing about a benevolent god of nightmares, and the openly puzzled religion that arises in confused worship of it… this is actually a lot more fun than it sounds, especially when all of the weirdness turns out to be consistent. It makes perfect sense, if you’re a god of nightmares.
Today’s Captcha words: Lime Bayonet
Definitely clashes with my purple flak vest.
Then you’ll need to switch to black and hot pink; my sister tells me they work really well with lime. Unless I’m getting it mixed up with neon green….
I’ve seen prayer as a measure of a god’s power (to a certain extent) done as mechanics before, but to do so, you have to be willing to allow for a very large range of power levels among your gods. This also gets into how you define “god”, most people seem to stick entirely to the ultra-powerful types like one sees in the Greek or Norse pantheon, but I’m rather partial to the more Eastern model used in the Exalted setting, where the power level of the gods ranges from Far Better Than You to Afraid of Commoner-Eating Housecats, as those kinds of gods can get involved in the story without feeling like they just popped out of a machine.
I have got to see some of these stories when they’re finished.
Heh, speaking of CAPTCHA–”craft Marionette”? DANCE, PUPPETS, DANCE!
Without spoilering too much, Pratchett’s point with the prayer=power concept was to illustrate how a real, verifiably existing god could and probably would wither away when its church grew into an institution, what with people conflating the institution with the god and ultimately worshipping the institution - it being more involved in their life. I believe thiw was meant to compare to a similar situation with a non-verifiable god, but you’d have to ask him…
My only true divines were three gods I invented to try to make an element system that actually made sense and had an underpinning metaphysics that allowed an exploration of those elements that was worth bothering with.
Other than that I almost always use finite gods - albeit sometimes with the power to bend reality severely - because they’re more fun. Gods are much more fun when they can turn up and punish your blaspheming ways by turning your face upside-down.
Grandpa: And ever since then I’ve been-
Kids: Talking out of your forehead, we know.
Grandpa: Kids don’t appreciate a good story.
It really depends on the role they’re supposed to play. I never liked the whole Fizban/Paladine thing, for example, but the reasons for the Cataclysm may have been complicated. (I struggled through Dragons of Autumn Twilight and then gave up, but some more enthusiastic friends filled me in on some of the details.) Many stories that involve the direct intervention of gods also introduce arbitrary rules that are either imposed by some super-god metaphysical necessity, or (even better) agreed upon by all members of the pantheon so they don’t ruin each other’s fun. These rules invariably boil down to:
1) Good gods can’t do anything other than advise, and if they want to have any kind of effect on the world they have do to so through an avatar.
2) Bad gods are supposed to follow rule #1, but usually don’t. Despite exercising what amounts to divine providence directly on their agents, they usually still lose because they aren’t very smart.
3) Any question to any god about this whole business prompts a long, avuncular (avauntular?) explanation of how heaven works, how bad gods cheat and good gods put up with it, and how none of this really matters to the main characters because said gods are largely apathetic or ineffectual anyway.
So, I prefer - when including gods in a story - to keep a close eye on their agendas and usually make sure that said agenda don’t particularly parallel whatever the main characters are doing.
Captcha words: ST sufferance
Perhaps the aptly named Saint Sufferance? Pretty tolerant, that one.
I prefer systems without Cosmic Forces of Morality, because then nobody’s good and nobody’s evil. It’s even better when the gods’ power levels vary, so you can have ones that are approximately your equals, with ones strong enough that even having one whose agenda matches with yours is as much a hindrance as an advantage due to their powerful rivals. And it can be kind of amusing if they’ve given up the mortal pawn thing and instead gotten in the habit of engaging in bureaucratic backbiting or found some other way to play out their rivalries.
ST sufferance? That’s cutting the person running the game in a White-Wolf game system some slack.
I agree in principle, but there are two considerations:
1) The difference between gods and mortals can become kind of tenuous, at which point I sometimes end up wondering what the distinction is (often, when “holy” type character skills and classes are involved, it’s almost entirely mechanical).
2) When you have a true divine - that is, some being that is a fundamental part of the universe - it’s not that unreasonable for a form of Cosmic Morality to exist. However, if it does, then it becomes an underlying part of the character of the entire setting and this can be difficult to deal with from a narrative point of view.
Eh… in a story I may have mentioned before, the morality of the world was largely constructed by a single person to serve her own agenda, and even though most virtues of a standard morality apply (e.g. people can live and function together in a society) it still serves her purposes in a manner not readily obvious.
Part of the conflict of the story (and my reason for writing it) had to do with a marginal outsider coming into conflict with this character, in part because of their differing definitions of words like “community” and “freedom” and how morality descended from these.
That story was not meant for an RPG… most of the conflict actually went on in opposing, unrelated hidden breeding programs, which meant that even though these two were at “war” with one another, they didn’t actually interact for thousands of years. Also as you might expect, a story that focuses on directed breeding as a form of conflict is maybe a bit heavy for roleplaying.
BUT, part of the effect of writing it (the part that’s done, anyway) was that I’d really like to see someone make a greater exploration of morality in systems where it’s supposed to be universal or ordained from above in some way, instead of just circumstantial.
Think about that universal morality for a moment, mandated by a god who cannot think of itself as other than perfect because its thoughts and desires and directives are written across every particle of matter in the universe.
What if those rules were different from the fantasy morality we’re used to?
For example, think about time and death. Death is generally thought to be a byproduct of time - as time goes by things change and deteriorate - “This too shall pass”, as King Solomon’s ring said.
But what if it were the other way around?
What if the process of Death (and Rebirth if you like) drove the great engine of Time? The universe powered by the passage of souls, and if too few die for too long a time, all of creation grinds to a halt and everyone lives on forever, thinking their final thought eternally.
Immortality, previously something striven for in fantasy stories, would become a dire threat. Violent conflict, while considered unfortunate under specific circumstances, would be considered necessary for the continued function of the universe on a broader scale.
How would different societies balance a living thing’s inherent will to live with its ultimately mandated need to die? Would a murderer be considered evil because of their violence? Or because of their hypocrisy?
And how would gods, immortal manipulators, fit into such a scheme? Would they develop a mythology of their own death and rebirth? Would they claim stewardship of the universe and start vast wars? Would they sacrifice themselves to restart the universe if it stopped?
This isn’t an amazing example, but it’s only one. Social interaction, personal responsibility, ownership, all are moral tenets that could easily be altered by divine intervention into something unrecognizable.
And, well, that’s why I don’t tend to use divines.
Captcha words: rates bronze
I guess that’s fair.
Have you noticed that the Captcha words seem to form a kind of shadow of meaning over time, like a sort of semiotic engine? What worries me is, it seems to be a negative one.
It’s like when you’re playing Typing of the Dead, and you’re typing for your life as “Strength” chases you with a huge chainsaw, and then you realize that instead of random words you’re typing coherent sentences but then as you reflect on that, VRRRRRR you die.
Except, you know, with less chainsaws.
Oh. My. THAT. Exactly.
What I’m more railing against is the easy morality that shows up with “good” and “evil” gods. Black hats, white hats, haven’t we seen this a million times?
I think I’m going to quit paying attention to captcha. It keeps giving me things that aren’t even words.
I’m a little too tired to actually contemplate it and write up a coherent thought to contribute but I just wanted to say that your hypothetical ‘can you have a god without religion’ and vicey versey stopped me in my tracks and made me think. I even had to turn to my housemate and ask her thoughts on it.
I’m going to have to return to this tomorrow when I can think more clearly (and don’t have Iron Chef on in the background ^_^)
Hey, welcome!
I look forward to hearing what you come up with! Come back Friday as well–I plan on exploring this further by discussing what I think the thing a religion needs most is. Might help you understand where I’m coming from.